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RE: [stag] BTL 160L

September 18, 2014, 1:45 am
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Sorry - just re-read - its Sapphire Blue..

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stag@digest.net [mailto:owner-stag@digest.net] On Behalf Of Philip Lowe
Sent: 14 September 2014 18:20
To: stag@digest.net
Subject: [stag] BTL 160L

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just bought this 1973 Auto Sapphire Blue Stag. Does anybody know of its history before 2005? Originally registered in Lincolnshire!

-------------------------------------------------------------
Sent from TriumphStag.NET [www.triumphstag.net]
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Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 6:12 am
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Hi all,
Has anyone had issues with their clutch slave push rod length? I have just finished replacing the clutch pressure plate, and lots of other work. Everything went back together fine, but the clutch pedal is not applying enough pressure to push the slave rod out far enough to allow the tranny lever to go far enough and let me shift (whew!). After checking everything, it appears that the rod is about 30 mm too short. Before I did the work I always noticed that there was very little leeway with the clutch...as soon as I lifted the pedal a bit off the floor the clutch engaged right away. My solution was to bring the rod to a machine shop. They are going to lengthen the rod about 30 mm. He is actually going to try and make a new rod that is adjustable with threaded rod and nuts, then I can adjust the clutch travel to whatever I like.
Just curious if anyone else has had a similar issue. I don't know why the rod no longer works as designed unless it has to do with it being an aftermarket product which was manufactured wrong? I have bled the clutch repeatedly and that is not an issue. Everything else checks out properly and when I manually push the tranny lever the shifting is perfect.
Can anyone shed light on this?
Thanks,
Rand
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Re: Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 6:19 am
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Admitting a silly mistake I made when I did my clutch a few years ago.....

Is the slave cylinder the correct side of the mounting bracket? It sounds obvious, but it isn't and it will actually fit either side, but one way the pushrod is too short - took me a while to realise!

<blush>

Cheers

Peter
Who hasn't driven his roadworthy Stag this year, or done any work on his un-roadworthy stag <depressed>
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[stag] Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 6:50 am
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> Everything went back together
> fine, but the clutch pedal is not applying enough pressure to
> push the slave rod out far enough to allow the tranny lever
> to go far enough and let me shift (whew!). After checking
> everything, it appears that the rod is about 30 mm too short.

There is supposed to be a spring inside the slave cylinder, that pushes the piston out (with the pedal released) and takes up any
slack. Thus the length of the pushrod should not matter, as long as the piston doesn't actually fall out of the bore before the
clutch releases.

> Before I did the work I always noticed that there was very little leeway with the clutch...as soon as I lifted the
> pedal a bit off the floor the clutch engaged right away.

Unfortunately, the original system had very little margin for wear. And it seems that no one ever thinks to lubricate the pin
between the clutch pedal and the MC pushrod, which can allow considerable wear at that point (which does not get compensated by the
slave action). Repairing that joint to have just enough clearance to move freely (rather than letting the pedal move an inch or
more before the MC starts to move) made a big difference on my Stag.

A longer slave pushrod will give you very slightly more motion, because the fluid is actually very slightly compressible. I got the
same effect by temporarily spacing the slave cylinder closer to the lever. But the right solution is to fix the joint at the pedal
(and anywhere else there is lost motion).

Another mod that will gain a bit more travel is to replace the plastic (nylon?) hydraulic line with Teflon, which doesn't swell as
much under pressure. The Teflon line is usually identified by the SS braid on the outside, which protects the Teflon inner from
abrasion.

I did not check, but I think there is a good chance that the adjustable slave pushrod from a TR3-TR4 would fit, even though they use
a Girling slave instead of the Stag Lockheed slave. You could certainly use the threaded clevis and make a pushrod to fit (which is
what I did for my TR3 with a TR6 gearbox in it).

Randall
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Re: [stag] Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 7:35 am
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You may also have dislodged the clutch fork from the pivot pin. Seen that
happen more than once.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 18, 2014, at 9:50 AM, "Randall" <TR3driver@ca.rr.com> wrote:

>> Everything went back together
>> fine, but the clutch pedal is not applying enough pressure to
>> push the slave rod out far enough to allow the tranny lever
>> to go far enough and let me shift (whew!). After checking
>> everything, it appears that the rod is about 30 mm too short.
>
> There is supposed to be a spring inside the slave cylinder, that pushes the
piston out (with the pedal released) and takes up any
> slack. Thus the length of the pushrod should not matter, as long as the
piston doesn't actually fall out of the bore before the
> clutch releases.
>
>> Before I did the work I always noticed that there was very little leeway
with the clutch...as soon as I lifted the
>> pedal a bit off the floor the clutch engaged right away.
>
> Unfortunately, the original system had very little margin for wear. And it
seems that no one ever thinks to lubricate the pin
> between the clutch pedal and the MC pushrod, which can allow considerable
wear at that point (which does not get compensated by the
> slave action). Repairing that joint to have just enough clearance to move
freely (rather than letting the pedal move an inch or
> more before the MC starts to move) made a big difference on my Stag.
>
> A longer slave pushrod will give you very slightly more motion, because the
fluid is actually very slightly compressible. I got the
> same effect by temporarily spacing the slave cylinder closer to the lever.
But the right solution is to fix the joint at the pedal
> (and anywhere else there is lost motion).
>
> Another mod that will gain a bit more travel is to replace the plastic
(nylon?) hydraulic line with Teflon, which doesn't swell as
> much under pressure. The Teflon line is usually identified by the SS braid
on the outside, which protects the Teflon inner from
> abrasion.
>
> I did not check, but I think there is a good chance that the adjustable
slave pushrod from a TR3-TR4 would fit, even though they use
> a Girling slave instead of the Stag Lockheed slave. You could certainly use
the threaded clevis and make a pushrod to fit (which is
> what I did for my TR3 with a TR6 gearbox in it).
>
> Randall
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Re: [stag] Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 8:11 am
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The ones we offer are 6 inches long
PeterH


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi all,
> Has anyone had issues with their clutch slave push rod length? I
> have just finished replacing the clutch pressure plate, and lots of
> other work. Everything went back together fine, but the clutch pedal
> is not applying enough pressure to push the slave rod out far enough
> to allow the tranny lever to go far enough and let me shift (whew!).
> After checking everything, it appears that the rod is about 30 mm
> too short. Before I did the work I always noticed that there was
> very little leeway with the clutch...as soon as I lifted the pedal a
> bit off the floor the clutch engaged right away. My solution was to
> bring the rod to a machine shop. They are going to lengthen the rod
> about 30 mm. He is actually going to try and make a new rod that is
> adjustable with threaded rod and nuts, then I can adjust the clutch
> travel to whatever I like.
> Just curious if anyone else has had a similar issue. I don't know
> why the rod no longer works as designed unless it has to do with it
> being an aftermarket product which was manufactured wrong? I have
> bled the clutch repeatedly and that is not an issue. Everything else
> checks out properly and when I manually push the tranny lever the
> shifting is perfect.
> Can anyone shed light on this?
> Thanks,
> Rand
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Sent from TriumphStag.NET [www.triumphstag.net]
↧

Re: [stag] Re: Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 8:12 am
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On 9/18/2014 9:19 AM, peterstag1 wrote:

> Admitting a silly mistake I made when I did my clutch a few years ago.....
>
> Is the slave cylinder the correct side of the mounting bracket? It sounds obvious, but it isn't and it will actually fit either side, but one way the pushrod is too short - took me a while to realise!

So which side is correct? The engine side or the transmission side?


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wayne Simpson, Proprietor of the Last Chance Garage
Wayne@Last-Chance-Garage.com
Brick Township, NJ

/"Lover of Triumph's three bastard sons; TR7 / TR8 / Stag"/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 8:22 am
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Further to what Peter said - I have just removed mine - so have a pic of the slave cylinder in situ

I don't know how to attach pics here - e mail me at kjhockey@tpg.com.au and I'll send pic.

Shouldn't need adjustable pushrod - once in the system will start from where it is at rest and the travel is a function of the mechanics and cylinder ratios - so all the pushrod will do is start from a set point - travel will remain the same.

The Stag system has NO slack - so has to be exactly right.

I have tried both slave cylinders that fit - can't remember the bores (can check - I think 7/8 and 1 inch) but larger one gives less travel (just enough) but less effort. Tried smaller - much more travel - BUT the extra effort makes it a hassle. Where you have to slip the clutch right on the edge of the spring it is hard to hold it there - makes take off jerky and the car unpleasant to drive.
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Re: RE: [stag] BTL 160L

September 18, 2014, 12:31 pm
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Hi Chris Fereday,

Just picked up a message re my Stag BTL160L - but cannot see anything apart from just re read its Sapphire blue- do you know any history pre 2005?
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Re: Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 8:08 pm
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Thanks for the replies. To answer:
~I have the slave mounted correctly, on the side closer to the tranny end.
~There is no slack in the pedal (it moves about 1/4 inch before engaging, not enough to make a difference). The master is actually new last year, so no excessive wear and tear there.
~The lines are not teflon but they are relatively new as well, and the amount of swelling couldn't possibly be enough to make a difference. There has to be at least an inch to an inch and a quarter added to make a difference enough to push the tranny lever enough to shift. I considered putting spacers in and moving the entire slave cylinder back 30 mm or so, but thought it would be better to go with a longer rod.
~If the hydraulic fluid pressure remains consistent (which it should since it is a relatively new slave cylinder), and I start out with a longer rod, it stands to reason that there will be more travel at the tranny lever. I am hoping enough so to move the lever back far enough to allow smooth shifting.
I have checked everything mentioned in these fine suggestions, but nothing appears wrong, and I don't have another solution. I know my TR3 does have an adjustable rod, so I am hoping this will work. I had forgotten about that fact until Randall mentioned it! I should have actually thought to get one for a TR3/4 and try that before resorting to what could turn out to be an expensive pushrod. The end result is, I don't know why it is like this, but it is, and I have to work around it. This was the best I could come up with given that there does not appear to be any other problem or issue with the setup. Thanks for the consideration and replies. I'll let you know how I make out when I get the rod and install it next week. I just wish I knew WHY this was the case.
Cheers,
Rand
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Re: [stag] Holley Conversion Info

September 18, 2014, 8:18 pm
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Matt,
I converted to a Holley 390 carb, with one of those triangular shaped air cleaners, I forget the name. I cannot use the bar across the hood that holds the hood liner in place, but other than that there is no other mod I like better for the Stag. I believe Tony Fox in Canada sells the conversion plate that goes on the manifold. Otherwise it is a pretty straight forward conversion. If you send me your email I can take some pictures and send them to you so you can see my set up. I have had it on the car since I purchased it and redid the engine. I have had no issues since the beginning (I initially adjusted it wrong so it was running very very lean, but I found out the factory tech was giving me the wrong information; once corrected the holley runs like a champ). My email is rand@torman.net . I don't have all the information at my fingertips but if you want a few pictures I can send them, and I will look up a few of the details I have forgotten over the years.
HTH,
Rand
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Re: [stag] Re: Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 9:13 pm
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You may find that the pin securing the clutch fork has also cracked. All else
being equal it's time to go inside the bellhousing.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 18, 2014, at 11:08 PM, "randtor" <EmailWitheld> wrote:
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
> Thanks for the replies. To answer:
> ~I have the slave mounted correctly, on the side closer to the tranny end.
> ~There is no slack in the pedal (it moves about 1/4 inch before engaging,
not enough to make a difference). The master is actually new last year, so no
excessive wear and tear there.
> ~The lines are not teflon but they are relatively new as well, and the
amount of swelling couldn't possibly be enough to make a difference. There has
to be at least an inch to an inch and a quarter added to make a difference
enough to push the tranny lever enough to shift. I considered putting spacers
in and moving the entire slave cylinder back 30 mm or so, but thought it would
be better to go with a longer rod.
> ~If the hydraulic fluid pressure remains consistent (which it should since
it is a relatively new slave cylinder), and I start out with a longer rod, it
stands to reason that there will be more travel at the tranny lever. I am
hoping enough so to move the lever back far enough to allow smooth shifting.
> I have checked everything mentioned in these fine suggestions, but nothing
appears wrong, and I don't have another solution. I know my TR3 does have an
adjustable rod, so I am hoping this will work. I had forgotten about that fact
until Randall mentioned it! I should have actually thought to get one for a
TR3/4 and try that before resorting to what could turn out to be an expensive
pushrod. The end result is, I don't know why it is like this, but it is, and I
have to work around it. This was the best I could come up with given that
there does not appear to be any other problem or issue with the setup. Thanks
for the consideration and replies. I'll let you know how I make out when I get
the rod and install it next week. I just wish I knew WHY this was the case.
> Cheers,
> Rand
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Sent from TriumphStag.NET [www.triumphstag.net]
↧

Re: [stag] Holley Conversion Info

September 18, 2014, 9:48 pm
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Great info;

From memory what jets did you end up running in yours???

Cheers;

Ken H
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Re: Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 18, 2014, 9:52 pm
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Hi Rand,

As others have mentioned, the slave pushrod length shouldn't change anything. At best, it may be a way to temporarily overcome some other issue.

From my experience, I wouldn't discount either the spring inside the slave cylinder (almost every one I've seen has been snapped part way) or a full bleed.

Spring: Critical. It's the only thing which lets the system self-adjust. Otherwise, the slave just gets pulled back off the pushrod every time you take your foot off the pedal.

Bleed: I have NEVER been able to bleed the clutch system like the brakes. I don't know whether the bleed screw is in completely the wrong place (no, I don't have it fitted upside-down either...) but there is always some air trapped in the system.
I always have to either remove the cylinder and hold it above the master cylinder (hose still attached of course) or clamp some vice-grips to prevent the slave piston actually moving, or use a pressure brake bleed (pump air into the reservoir, open bleed screw).

Unless someone can point out what I have been doing wrong all these years, I wouldn't dismiss air in the system just because 2 person bleeding sees fluid coming out the bleed screw.

Your car of course. Just my 2c (with gets worth less every year...)
Nathan
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[stag] Stag Digest Advertisers: regular posting

September 18, 2014, 10:40 pm
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[stag] Re: Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 19, 2014, 1:01 am
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You are not the only one with this problem. I posted the exact same problem
about a year ago. Mine has improved slightly with time apparently time allows
any last air bubbles to make their way out? I can disengage as I hit the
floor.

The only other thought the list had with mine was to overhaul the master
cylinder as maybe it isn't pushing out enough fluid. I haven't got around to
doing that yet. As I think others have mentioned lengthening the rod may make
no difference because the thing is self centring. It must be that the piston
inside is not moving far enough to push the rod. If you lengthen the rod that
will just push the piston further into the slave cylinder.

There was a thought to put something in the slave cylinder (like a nut?) to
take up some of the volume?

By moving the rod onto different holes on the actuating lever will make a
difference because a given rod movement will result in a different amount of
radial movement of the lever.

So you are not alone please keep us all updated.
Gavin...
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Re: [stag] Re: Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 19, 2014, 1:15 am
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Well, having got my slave cylinder (new) the correct side of the bracket and the right way up! I fitted a new master cylinder and I still couldn't get any pressure, or at least enough to operate the clutch, I was advised to pressure bleed. I was sent (by those nice people at Robsport) a spare screw top to to my master cylinder so that I could modify it to suit my pressure bleeder. A lot of pressure and fluid later it is nice and hard and working as expected. The clutch was pretty good as well :-)
Cheers
Peter
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[stag] Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 19, 2014, 2:22 am
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Hi Folks

Would you expect a contribution form me that didn't start with;

"Let's go back to basics"

I think Randalls contributions to these answers were spot-on. In particular
you really don't need free play at the pedal and the fulcrum pins are
notorious for creating this situation, even a too-thick carpet underneath it -
both kill slave cylinder travel. The master cylinder is prone to
wear/corrosion resulting in the seal not sealing properly during initial
travel - certainly enough to reduce fluid transfer and cause clutch drag or
worse.

A nice new flexible seal will work for a short time, but soon you end up in
the same situation. Look carefully inside the master cylinder reservoir for
signs of black powder in the fluid, this is the result of the bore scuffing up
the seal.

Unfortunately there are a lot of 'will-fit' master and slave cylinders out
there, probably the wrong size bore anyway resulting either in a very heavy
pedal or not enough slave travel. Similarly, badly reconned cylinders with
bell-mouth bores or simply scoring at the wear point will kill full clutch
release.

Most annoyingly, the release fork inside the bellhousing is located with a
dowel pin. It is often that these wear (causing reduced travel) or break,
often the clutch can still be partially operated as the fork tends to corrode
onto the cross-rod and rarely give up all their grip. You need to look at the
angle of the operating lever (attached to the slave push-rod) this should be
positioned vertically in mid-travel, and go approximately +5 deg to -5 deg.

Lastly, how about the clutch itself? Collapsed thrust bearing, worn-out
centre-plate, oil contamination, wrong parts (not uncommon!!!) can be the root
cause. Supplier 'error'?

IMHO - Mike Wattam
Chairman - Triumph Stag Register
The Only Truly International Stag Club for Stag Owners
Up to date technical advice without vested interests
www.tristagreg.org
Mike@tristagreg.org
Phone: +44 (0) 1202 761051

Do you really need to send your message?
Is your message correctly titled?
Is it in simple 'text' format, without duplicate copies?
Do you really need to send back the incoming message?
Are you targeting the right person(s)?

>
> Well, having got my slave cylinder (new) the correct side of
> the bracket and the right way up! I fitted a new master
> cylinder and I still couldn't get any pressure, or at least
> enough to operate the clutch, I was advised to pressure
> bleed. I was sent (by those nice people at Robsport) a spare
> screw top to my master cylinder so that I could modify it
> to suit my pressure bleeder. A lot of pressure and fluid
> later it is nice and hard and working as expected. The clutch
> was pretty good as well :-)
> Cheers
> Peter
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Re: [stag] Oil temp gauge

September 19, 2014, 2:26 am
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Have sat heads and manifold back on old engine and there is room for the temp sender - so it is in.

Very easy straight forward install - the hole in the boss is even the exact size that the sender tap needs - so all good.
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Re: [stag] Re: Clutch Slave cylinder push rod

September 19, 2014, 2:32 am
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I have not had success with "from dry" master cylinders using the "pump pedal" method - as very difficult to get enough air out for it to start working.

When I installed mine (Stag) I stuck a tube on the slave nipple and sucked on the tube - perfect - and removed ALL the air as Stag hose run is pretty straight.

I now have pressure bleeders and a vacuum hand pump - but on my Jaguar NONE of those worked - as somehow some air would get caught somewhere - and the Jag isn't as "direct", ie has flat areas where the air can collect. The ONLY way that would work is by sucking from the top - that worked perfectly.

So sometimes the method will be dictated by how "roundabout" your hose run is.
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